S3E6:Theatre in the Classroom - Discovering Frederick Douglass

Playwright, Gabe Moses, Director LaMar Pope, and BTE education director Abby Leffler sit down with Resident Artist, Aaron White to share what BTE has planned for the upcoming Theatre In the Classroom (TIC) tour of Discovering Frederick Douglass: The Remarkable Life of a National Leader.

Transcripts of all Season 2 and 3 episodes are available on our Buzzsprout website.

Check out our current season: http://www.bte.org
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Transcript

S3E6: Theatre in the Classroom - Discovering Frederick Douglass

Intro

[00:00:00] 

Aaron: Welcome to Bloomsburg Theater Ensemble Down Center, a podcast where we discover our company, our people, our art, and our town, and tour them all around the state, and front and down center. Hello, I'm resident artist Aaron White and I am here with the creative team behind our new "Theater in the Classroom" touring production of Discovering Frederick Douglass to find out what it takes to craft an original play about an American original and bring it to a Gym-a-caf-a-torium near you.

The Players

 Tell me who you are and why we're interviewing you for this TIC podcast 

Abby: Okay, great. My name is Abigail Leffler. I am the education director at BTE. I am in charge of all the educational content that goes out so whether it be theater school offerings or booking theater in the classroom show I am the one who Is in charge of that educational content so in regards to this particular episode I am the person who books the show for TIC and I'm the one, I'm kind of like the [00:01:00] tour manager without actually having to go on tour with them.

Aaron: You're the person in the chair. 

Abby: Yes, I'm the person in the chair.

Aaron: They go out and have fun. They do. Yes. From afar. 

Abby: From afar. Yeah.

Gabe: I am Gabe Moses. I am an actor, director, and writer. I had the privilege of working with BTE for the first time in 2023 for the Theatre in the Classroom tour. We did Park Protectors and the story of the Buffalo Soldiers. Dante Green wrote and directed that production, and I had the privilege of working on that as an actor. So that was my first experience to TIC, and this time around, I am the playwright for TIC's production in 2025, which is Discovering Frederick Douglass: The Remarkable Life of a National Leader.

Avery: My name is Avery Lamar Pope and I am blessed to be the director of Bloomsburg Theater Ensemble's TIC production of Frederick Douglass.

 Discovering Frederick Douglass. I keep [00:02:00] saying that, I keep telling people, yes, it's dope play about Frederick Douglass, so I keep just saying Frederick Douglass,

but I, I don't, I'm not saying discovering

Frederick, yeah, but discovering Frederick Douglass 

Theatre in the Classroom

Aaron: Abby, why don't you give us the history of theater in the classroom? 

Abby: Okay. 

Aaron: And how does Discovering Frederick Douglass sort of fit in that history? 

Abby: We have been doing tours of theater in the classroom since 1978 so well before my tenure here at BTE, they have been doing something like this. I even remember when I was in kindergarten seeing a TIC, with Elizabeth Dowd in it. So that is, that is how far back it goes. TIC is usually original content and that content is educational based so that it can hopefully tie into school's curriculums. 

We rehearse it and then we go on tour. I don't know what the tour length was when they first started TIC, but I know that now we tour for 10 weeks and we go to schools all over the area, whether it be local [00:03:00] in Bloomsburg or in New Jersey and Philadelphia. 

Aaron: When I did my TIC, we went almost out to State College. In fact, we probably did. We were all the way out, in Center County.

Yeah. 

Abby: So where Frederick Douglass fits into this... is A lot of what we have in our, tenure of TIC is, is Pennsylvania based 

Aaron: For the majority of Theater in the Classroom's history, they've been written in house.

Yes. So the ensemble has a topic that they're interested, or they've heard there is an interest from educators to bring to their students, and then we write those pieces. Very often, at least in the 80s and 90s, when you and I were growing up, they were touring, uh, stories about coal mining, or stories about the immigrant experience, 

Abby: And even about our founding fathers. 

Aaron: But it tended to be sort of Western European centric stories.

 Laurie McCants and Elizabeth Dowd discovered there were other cultures to go and explore and bringing those to central Pennsylvania. Yeah. So in more recent history with both Dante Green's. Park [00:04:00] protectors, , that Gabe was in, uh, Gabe, and now with Discovering Frederick Douglass, we are diversifying the kind of stories that we can tell.

Abby: Yeah. 

Aaron: I think there's a recognition that we can't tell, the full American experience without bringing other folks in. 

Abby: Sure, for sure. 

 Dante was a homegrown kid. They're a Bloomsburg native. And luckily that brought Gabe in. And so, uh, there, there's a fun sort of lineage of that branch of theater in the classroom.

TIC Tour Stories 

Aaron: You've been on, on a, on a TIC or more. Or two, yes, or 

Abby: three. Uh, 

Aaron: what, what, what do you, what is special, what, what, what, um, do you, do you have a, an anecdote or a, tour story instead of a war story?

I only have really war stories, but, um. 

Abby: I just have a general feeling of what TIC was when I was touring. Yeah. The three TICs that I did was Eureka Two, More Inventions and More Inventors or whatever the title was, , Passage to America [00:05:00] and All Aboard Stories of the Transcontinental Railroad.

So those three are the ones that I did. I think because I'm one of those homegrown Bloomsburgers as well. Being able to share and, and have that parallel of knowing that there's a kindergartner there who is discovering just how magical this is, just like I did when I was in kindergarten, is super special for me.

And that is what On that week eight or nine of the tour where you're just like, oh my gosh, i'm so tired That keeping you motivated is super important. 

Aaron: Yeah, because there's a there is a pretty significant I like to think of it as the the feather in the cap or or Like the the Brits used to say we're touring the provinces, you know It takes a lot of energy and discipline to do this tour, the performers that are going out.

Because we're doing, how many shows a week sometimes? 

Abby: We can do up to 15 shows a week, but typically it's probably around 10 that we typically do. 

Aaron: Yeah, so you're [00:06:00] going to maybe one school, or sometimes two schools a day. 

Abby: Yes. 

Aaron: Because it is a, it's a 40 minute, 40 minute show. Yes. And if they're nearby you can squeeze in, you know, quite a few.

Study Guide 

Aaron: So do we just send people out cold and, and teachers have to explain, Oh my gosh, what are we doing here?

Abby: What are we learning? No, in the coming weeks, I will start. start crafting a study guide that will be available on our website for you to download or use from our website in order to help guide your classes as they're getting closer to the performance date that they have. It'll have helpful information of who the actors are and where they're coming from.

It'll have a history of Frederick Douglass in it and his life and times, but then it will also have some games you can play or post show questions. It's an all encompassing study guide to help you be better prepared for us to visit.

In addition to the study guide, we'll also have have links that you are able to use to dive deeper into Frederick [00:07:00] Douglass's life or work because we can only fit so much into a study guide. 

Aaron: Yeah, and Douglass was a pretty prolific. Yes, man. Yes There's so much that he wrote and spoke on That is really truly impactful. 

Previous Knowledge of Frederick Douglass

Aaron: Gabe your relationship to Frederick Douglass and his, his story. Cause your experience and curiosity with him predates the writing of this play.

Gabe: Yes. Yes. So I, I was introduced to Frederick Douglass in high school. And it was during black history month and I was introduced to one of his speeches that my teacher gave me. And thought I would recite for our Black History performance. And this was back in like 2015. 10 years ago. Um, so I, I was able to do his speech, uh, What's the American Slave is the 4th of July.

 That speech really spoke to me so much at that age and in a way that I didn't think it would, it ended up sticking and I ended up coming back to it in 2020 when I saw the state of the world and everything that we were going through, [00:08:00] everything that we're trying to do with the Black Lives Matter movement.

 So I started thinking of a way in which I could make that that speech, a performance piece. So I kind of created my own solo show out of that, which is called Seven for 1852, which I premiered at the Pennsylvania Shakespeare festival in 2023. After working at Bloomsburg, I think it was Elizabeth who got her hands on the recording and proposed me writing, a Frederick Douglas story for the Theater In the Classroom tour, for this year.

Aaron: Avery, do you have a personal experience with, with or knowledge about Frederick Douglass prior to coming into this project?

Avery: Yeah, I mean I think that growing up I had a lot of history just like kind of thrown at me And I was like my brother was the history buff of the family, but my dad being his militant, if you will, self and me having my own kind of militant natures as well, I was, I was made privy to the abolitionist movement and, , to just giants in the movement [00:09:00] like Frederick Douglass and Harriet Tubman and the like, but then also just kind of like my own research of just like who were some of these people, what were they like really passionate about and things of that nature. , and so while I Of course, I would argue did not know as nearly as much as Gabe does about Frederick Douglass. Right. , having written the piece, I do know a good amount. Just kinda like how growing up and knowing kind of the world, that he existed in and kind of, you know, what his intention and his passions were. 

Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. Certainly Gabe's interest was a big part of what spurred or initiated us asking and commissioning the piece.

Black History

Aaron: it's interesting cause Gabe, you had mentioned black history month,

and this is going to drop on February 1st. Is I'm, I'm, this may, may or may not be in the podcast. I'm just actually curious. This is my own personal curiosity. What are your thoughts about there being like one month of black history month,

Gabe: Yeah.

Aaron: opposed to, and what I'm excited about is this is going to be touring for like three, three or four months [00:10:00] bringing these stories and, what is important about having it ever present, I guess.

So. Opinions about Black History Month. I'm curious. And then maybe we can just flow into what's the importance of these stories.

Gabe: The first thing that comes to mind is the joke that we always make it's like, the black history month is the shortest month of the year.

Avery: Yeah. 

Gabe: Um, but in the grand scheme of things, black history month is so important because It's the second month of the year and we can take everything that we've everything that we learned during that month throughout the rest of the year and for years to come.

That's what I always like to say. And I, I think it's so important because I, I was not introduced to Black History Month, but I guess it became important to me when I was in high school, when I was doing those performances. And when I, when I was introduced to Frederick Douglass it became important to me because that was the month that I felt like more than any others, especially in school, where I really got to know about my history as a black person, um, and to see, , how the parallels line up.

If you look at people like Frederick Douglass, and you look at [00:11:00] people like Martin Luther King Jr. And then we see a present day example of those people who is, in my opinion, Barack Obama, right? And we get to see like what each of these men And women have done for our history and how they've pushed the agenda along for African Americans and during slavery during the civil rights movement during the Black Lives Matter movement, right?

We kind of see all those parallels. And it's important for me, especially with Franklin Douglass's story to understand that we're putting almost putting our lives at stake. I mean, Frederick Douglass put his life at stake several times to be able to speak about what he thought was meaningful our people and to the times itself. We get to learn about all these different figures and what they have done for our country, what they're still doing for our country. And we're able to carry that on in the present day and look at ourselves and see how we can do those same things.

Avery: Yeah, Yeah. One thing that's always been interesting to me about Black History Month, it's not only it's brevity, because I think that's, that, that joke still stands, but [00:12:00] it also is like, okay, well, what is the intention? Right?

Like, if I think about, if I think about corporations, I think about organizations, I think about, people groups, and I think about conversations being had surrounding the month, I'm always curious about what the expectation is, what the anticipation is, and what the expected result is, right? So, yeah. you know, where are we trying to go?

Having celebrated this topic, Having celebrated this culture, having celebrated this history, you know, when March 1st hits, do we completely and totally and only shift to Women's History Month without having to consider what happened the previous month? And then when April comes, do we consider a different people group that has been disenfranchised and completely forget about the women of March, right?

And so it makes me start to think like, OK, we have this important topic. But, after this month is over, do we just pull all of the print and pull all of the, like, the important history books and pull all of the, you know, children's books on [00:13:00] representation? Do we pull all the My Hair and Me's? Do we pull all of those books? Do we pull them off of the shelves and just kind of, now we just stack the shelves with a random array of books now? And we don't have that, and we just give a sliver of the bookshelf to those who are the global majority and those who are black? You know? and that's what it makes me think about. Right. Because it's always a conversation of like, I'm black? 365 days of the week, you know, out of the year, seven days a week, you know, 24 hours a day, you know, And I'm just like, I'm just extra black apparently during February. Right. and so like, by the time March hits, I'm still going to be extra black. You know what I mean? April, June, August, October 32nd, if you will, like, I'm 

still going to be, And so my, my point of view on black history month is that it's necessary. I would never be somebody who says, take it away, but I'm also going to be out always going to be the one that has the questions. Okay. Like, but I'm black. In August too.

So what are we doing about that? You know, what are we doing to make sure that people [00:14:00] who are, let's just be honest, and this may be a pessimistic view of it, but could be seen as almost, celebrated in spite of the disenfranchisement, what are we doing to ensure that the celebration is now in June or in September, the fact that the disenfranchisement is s no more? Right? Um, and if we can't get there, then I kind of don't want the party hat on February 14th. I'll take the party hat once you now give me my own table. I see that, I'll take, you know what I'm saying? like, those type of conversations I think need to be had. 

Importance of the Douglass Story: Sparking Conversation

Avery: And I think about, I think you asked a question about the piece moving through February and March and April and May, you know, I think what's important about it is It sparks conversation, right? and the conversation doesn't only need to be had in February, right? But especially with so much of voice and history being stricken from the books and so much being [00:15:00] stricken from curriculums and so many Books and so many topics being banned from conversation where young minds are being cultivated to think for themselves. No, Yeah. no. 100%. When May comes, I do want to have the same conversation about Frederick Douglass that I had in March. The same conversation about freedom, the same conversation about justice, the same conversation about speaking out the same conversation of speaking truth. I don't want to just have it in March. I don't want to just have it in February. No, I want the kids to go home and say, Hey, I just had this conversation about Frederick Douglass. And I want them to look in their parents faces and say, What do you know about Frederick Douglass? Because this is what I just learned. You know, and so, I think having it span through those months gives us so much more opportunities to, one, touch more lives, And for the kids in May, To have no kind of recollection of the fact that this conversation. kind of spawned in February. It's May 14th. And they're like, Oh, we're talking about Frederick Douglass. That's necessary because abolition And [00:16:00] freedom... That's a, that's a year round conversation.

American Tension

Aaron: And kind of what you were saying about it, you are who you are for, for every day of the year. I was telling Gabe, I actually just finished reading the draft. And it's really wonderful. Um, one of the things that struck me was, particularly about the July 4th speech, there's a lot of language in the, in this play about his identity and being American ... That sometimes those things are in direct, conflict with one another and, I'm going to really paraphrase it and Gabe, maybe you can flesh it out, but the idea that, we're supposed to be celebrating being American and that's in direct conflict with what that experience is because of the complexion of Douglass's skin.

And that's not something you get to escape. And Gabe you so you've been in the schools where it's all white faces looking back at you...

There are times where now I feel what the majority of America has voted on is contrary to what I believe, you know, and who I am, even though [00:17:00] it's not necessarily by my appearance, but my beliefs.

For folks who might be skeptical of, being American, but not part of the predominant American narrative, which I think is very much where Frederick was writing from. Right?

 What benefit comes out of that tension and your final line Gabe about, you know, I hope, or I look for a better future, what lessons can you take out of that tension toward action? 

Gabe: I think about the fact that Frederick Douglass was literally born into slavery, right? When he came out of his mother's womb, he joined a world that none of us have ever imagined. And so just as Frederick Douglass was born into slavery, Avery and I as, as black people in this world were born into racism, prejudice, all the things that our ancestors have carried and all the things that history has depicted what we live in at the, at this very moment. The scary part [00:18:00] about writing and bringing this Frederick Douglass piece to schools is not knowing whether the kids are able to relate to it. And my responsibility as the writer was to try to find a way to find those connections, of how can you relate to, a kid, Frederick Douglass, who was brought up in the 1800s, born into slavery, and couldn't learn how to read or write, or wasn't allowed to go to school with White people, and so the fact that we're able to go bring this story to school, right? Bring Frederick Douglass is legacy to predominantly white schools. I think it's very powerful. It's going to make a statement for the fact that it's just going to exist in those spaces that his words from his speech are going to be heard by the children of today. So that's one of the main benefits for me. 

The other one is that if you think about Frederick Douglass's story and all of the trauma and trials that he had to overcome, the thing that touches me about his story and where he gets at in a lot of his speeches is that even though he has some [00:19:00] rage for the country, for America, he still finds a way in all of it to find hope. So thinking about how we can find hope in the present day and whether this future is going to be bright or whether it's going to be a little dark, whether we can list like spring that hope that Frederick Douglass had into our future that we're still creating for ourselves, that makes this story relatable to anyone that exists in this world and especially this country. 

Aaron: Yeah, 

Avery: I'll say this regarding the tension I think that one of the things that, we can look at the tension and see perspective in is the fact that the tension is what makes America, America. You know, like I, have been on the front lines, I've been tear gassed, I've, seen the canisters, I've led the protests, I've sat at the town halls, I've done all the things, but what we can say is that we know of countries where a dissenting opinion is a dead one. we know of countries where a disagreement is fatal. You know, [00:20:00] we know of countries where you don't have a say. And as much as we fight for our say, and as much as we feel like we aren't heard or as much as we may not be actually heard, contention on who you are, the fact that you can say something period is a blessing. it is a hard fought blessing blessing that was bought by blood. It is a blessing that was provided through pain, but it is a blessing nonetheless. And I think that on one side, we see it and we're like, man, I gotta get out of here, right? Some of us are like, man, I'm not living in the United States anymore.

I'm living in Canada. I'm living in wherever. I'm going to London. I'm going. to wherever you're going. I'm like I'm not disagreeing with your disposition. I'm not saying don't do what you feel. I'm just saying that one thing we have seen is that a voice matters in America. A voice is optional in America. A voice is fought for in America and the tension of having a different disposition than the leading [00:21:00] powers or the powers that may be, or the dissenting opinion in a room that doesn't look like you.

It's the fact that you can express it. 

Now....

I am by no means arguing that it's going to be all the time safe, or all the time healthy, or all the time welcomed. But, it is our responsibility as creatives, our responsibility as storytellers And writers, our responsibility as the leaders in the artistic community, our responsibility as people of the dissenting opinion to share it. And recognize that you might get some heat when you do, know,

but if Gabe doesn't tell this story about Frederick and Frederick doesn't give Gabe story to tell right.

And vice versa. Right. You know, and so that's the point of view I have about the, tension. If you don't say anything about it, but then you're not using the voice that you have, , for the reasons that you have it. It's a beautiful struggle. It's a beautiful pain. But it, is America. 

Aaron: And I think that that's actually the example that Douglass's words put [00:22:00] forward. It's like, I know I'm not... wanted in some, you know, in many of these sectors, but I'm going to make space. I'm going to make space for myself and I'm going to make space for the people who look like me. 

Avery: yeah 

Aaron: It's a brave thing... and to be resilient enough to take the heat when it comes. I think that's the other, that, that, that's the, that's the hard 

Gabe: Not easy, right?

Avery: it's not it's not it's not easy, you know taking that heat and getting that attention. it's not it's not Um, but you got to go along and get along sometimes and other times you kind of gotta.. Grit and bear it. 

Aaron: what is, what is important about telling this story in 2025 When we're all, we're all trying to feel comfortable in our own home, which may not feel comfortable?

Avery: Yeah, so I, I think that, we're all looking for a place to call home. Now, unfortunately, some of us are, as you stated, are looking for that home in our own homes. But also, [00:23:00] some of us have a home there and it kind of doesn't feel like home.

Some of us are, Looking for a home elsewhere. We're looking for a home in our friends, in our relationships, in our families, in our, uh, sports and things of that nature, in our churches, in our, uh, drama clubs, in our, you know, insert, space where community can exist there, right? And the thing is, what you're trying to do, with a piece like this is you're trying to provide students, faculty, administrators, teachers, families, a way to generate home within the conversations they have.

That's the black and white of it all, you know, it's like illness, right? And when you're, when you're sick at home everybody gets sick. One person catches the stomach bug and then the next person does when the other person gets healthy. But my prayer and my hope is that change is that contagious.

My prayer and my hope is that the words that Gabe has brought to this, story and the words that Gabe has provided us with spread through like a fire, spread through like an illness, why? Because you are inevitably changed after you are made healthy. You are inevitably [00:24:00] changed after you undergo an experience like that. And the kind of experience that we're trying to cultivate is, a heathy detoxification. It is a healthy detox, right? Because the fact of the matter is we all got to find a way to break out of that, right? We all got to find a way to create that home.

Aaron: And the only way you can feel healthy is to feel sick first. You know what I mean? 

Avery: Yeah, yeah. But on the other side of that, right? To even further that metaphor, then you know what vitamins to take so that you don't get sick anymore. You know what kind of water to drink so that you don't get sick anymore. How much water you need to drink.

And so far as, You know what kind of conversations you need to have in order to forego the opportunities to get sick again, right? You know what kind of, disputes and and uncomfortable discussions that you need to have in order to say, Hey, we gotta go there for a second, but if we don't go there, I don't like what's on the other side of it.

So we gotta go there, we gotta go through a little to get to a lot, you [00:25:00] know? We gotta go through a little to get to a lot, and that's what we're trying to get to. 

Bringing Tough Ideas into School

Avery: One of the things that we did in my former job is we did something called a belief circle.

And we all sit in a circle and, I don't know if you all are familiar, but we ask questions contingent on beliefs and whether or not you feel comfortable or supported and sharing them and we were doing it in the confines of the play Julius Caesar so you can already argue especially in the years that we're doing it in like the Fall of 2021 and the Fall of 2024, you know, yeah, there's going to be hot years to do Julius Caesar, hot years to be expressing politics, right?

But one of the things that you have to be able to do in that job is you have to be able to make space for everybody to share their point of view. and one of the things that I feel that my faith gives me the opportunity to do is to lead with grace and understanding. When it's like, Listen, I don't agree with what everybody says. I don't agree with the way everybody moves. I don't agree with the way that everybody lives their life. But, the black and white of it is, there's a [00:26:00] lot of people who don't agree with me. There's a lot of people who don't agree with the way I live my life. They don't agree with the fact that I'm here in the first place.

But, It is my responsibility as a man to say, well, hold on now. If I want to have an atmosphere that is welcoming of my differing and dissenting opinion, then I have to be the nucleus of that atmosphere wherever I go. So, it's difficult to sit in a room and recognize there are people who flat out live their life opposed to your existence. Opposed to your belief and to still lead with the love that you feel have been freely given to you with the grace that you feel has been freely provided for you with the understanding that you feel you need to keep going. But. Despite that, they're also kids, you know, they, they, they listen, they hear, they're getting such an influx of information through social media.

They're getting so many different opinions. Everybody's a politician in 2024. Everybody is a protester in [00:27:00] high school. Everybody's doing walk-ins, walkouts and sit downs and and, and speaking truth. Everybody has an opinion and. With the laws changing every week and, you know, so many things are happening, you gotta be able to breathe and let them express themselves.

And whether they agree with the way you live your life or not, it's their right to have their opinion, just like it's your right to have yours. You know, and so long as everybody is treating each other with respect, which is to be said because some people aren't You definitely need to ensure that you're still loving one another in a way that makes this world a peaceful coexistence and not just a coexistence, you know.

Aaron: Thank you for that.

Avery: yeah 

The Process of Writting a TIC

Aaron: Gabe, you were mentioning the state of the play, we got, you know, pieces of paper now, and it's, it's kind of written. But as you know, and, Avery is, I'm sure you'll find out that the. The thing is never really fully concrete until you get in front of kids and see how they respond to it.

So, what [00:28:00] plans and hopes do you have now that it's out of Gabe's head and on paper, for what the rehearsal process looks like, who we're bringing on...

Gabe: Yes, I'm, I always say I'm an actor first. So, and I, I know that this piece has so many other hidden things in it that cannot be found and will not be found until there are actors speaking these words. And there's a director to facilitate and guide actors through that process. So I'm very excited about the rehearsal process.

 I'm going to try as much as I can to be there at least once a week if I can. I'm just excited to see how, how the voices take on these words, because as much of it as is Frederick Douglass, his story, it's our story too, and it's not just black people's story. It's it's America's story.

You know, his story is our story. I'm really excited to see how his story is portrayed through our, three very talented artists today.

Avery: Jalen, Theodore Clark, TJ Diamond. McClendon. Yeah, yeah, yeah, [00:29:00] and I know, TJ and Diamond. I'm excited to meet, uh, Jalen, and I'm really excited to see how the three of them work together. You know, for it to be something that is like, I don't know where we're going with this, but I'm really excited because of the fact that , there's so much we can do with it, you know, especially with devised theater and music and stuff like that. I have so many ideas that I just can't wait to, you know, I cannot wait to get into the room because I can't, wait to, I can't wait to put some more life into the words and the life that is already present.

You know, I think that one thing that's really important, especially with one with new work, but also especially with new work, with students, right. New work with kids, right. It is finding that "in", right. And I think that one of the things that I'm trying to, incorporate into the piece and I had a conversation with our scenic designer, one of the things that I'm trying to make take place is for people to feel a sense of home. You're learning about Frederick Douglass at the house, right? Now it may not be your house. It might be my house, right? [00:30:00] But there are some things that we're able to find familiarity in. One thing that helps is it's easy for kids to get excitedly overstimulated. Right. So it's like, I'm excited that there's so many things happening, but there actually are so many things happening. Right where I'm like, Oh my gosh, it's like a kid in a candy store. If we're going to be honest, a kid in a candy store, that's an overstimulated. that's an overstimulant. It's so many things to pick from, and there's an excitement there, right? There's a joy there, right? But if you leave a kid there, then There's nobody to walk them through, there's nobody to help them see, hey, you're allergic to this...

Aaron: mm

Avery: This is gonna be or this is gonna too sour for you, or though this is red, it doesn't taste like fruit. It tastes like cinnamon. And so goal is to not, over stimulate the kids while still providing them with a whole experience.

And so My, approach, if I could share this without giving away too much for the podcast, my approach a lot more of a calm and conversational approach. 

And one that I'm really [00:31:00] excited about getting in the room, especially Gabe, I would love for you to be there. It's just kind of seeing like. What's your idea of how this is working? And how can we fuse it to make it a conversation? Right? Because I think that one of the things that happens in the call and response nature of children's theater is we make it more, I'm talking at you, but I'm not talking to you. , the experience that I've had with kids is now they got stuff to say, you know, they got point, they got point, of view, they got perspective, they got emotions they want to express. And one of the things that I want to make sure we do is , we are able to sit and we're able to breathe. And we're able to recognize that even though this is a dramatization of the argument, it's also an opportunity to learn how to communicate. Okay. And to learn how to have hard conversations and give that space, right? And that's one of the things that I want to help articulate and illustrate with the performance.

With the staging and the blocking and the scenic design and all those things, is [00:32:00] We're having a hard conversation And we're saying hard things, but we gotta be able to do it in a space that's open. and the of the way that I want to work in the rehearsal process and the way that I want to mount it is that openness of, okay, let's just talk about it. You may not know about who this person is or what this person went through, and this is not even everything, but we can conversation here with this 55 to 65 minutes that we have. 

Aaron: One of the things that Elisabeth Dowd always says about TIC is you can take kids to a hard place. They'll go with you. You just can't keep them there, and one of the joyful things I'm excited to see is, Gabe, you've incorporated musical components throughout the play on paper. Singing or, or feeling hard things and, feeling it through music could the calm that Avery you're talking about, but that we digest those hard things in a different way when it comes to us, through music.

Gabe: I think that music is so important to TIC, but very important to to Frederick Douglass's Theater in [00:33:00] the Classroom because of the way the music works in this piece, how we hear really tough section to take. to digest when it comes to Frederick Douglass's story or Frederick Douglass's message of what he's trying to say. And then we have the music that sort of works as the calm in the midst of the storm, as it did for the enslaved people, when they were trying to escape, , the South, when they were trying to escape slavery. They sang these Negro spirituals in the Underground Railroad, , to get through, to literally get by. Literally, they're messages, secret messages in the songs that help them, , know where they had to go next. And, also the spiritual part of it is that they did, it did bring them a sense of "we got you," the higher beings got you. We're going to get you through to where you have to go. That's all sprinkled throughout this whole piece in a way that I think will resonate with students to see how Frederick Douglass and the people of that time were able to get through and how we can use music as a tool to do that today. 

Know Before We Go

Aaron: I'll open up the floor. Anything else you want to say, uh, about the, the process or that you think it might be [00:34:00] important, particularly for, for, um, teachers and administrators to know, about the piece and what you imagine about the piece. 

Gabe: The only thing I would say is just like we, don't shy away from the story the truths of the matter that Frederick Douglass was owned, you know, he had a master. I think that's important to share to kids, you know, we don't want to give them the sugar coated version of the story. I want to bring out the humanity in Frederick Douglass's story. Because we often think of him as the pictures that we see, right? Like the serious, stern looking person in his photographs. But he literally taught himself how to read. He literally taught himself the majority of the things he knew in his life, which is very commendable as a young black child living in the 1800s. I don't shy away from what slavery actually was during that time and how harmful it was to our people.

Aaron: And in a way that allows kids to imagine what it would be like. Frederick didn't have these things, and you're here with these things, what would it be [00:35:00] like if you didn't, you know? I think that that's a really great parallel. 

Gabe: So that's the trigger warning of it. But if you're inviting Frederick Douglass into your school, I think that's probably a given. But just saying that, you know, I don't shy away from that.

And I'm happy his story will be told in this way.

I think that if if there was something I would have teachers and 

Avery: administrators , listen, there are some things that are simply hard truths. They are, they are just hard truths. There's, this is no time for guilt. This is no time for remorse, necessarily. You are a descendant, so that means that you are not guilty of anything necessarily. Do your own work and see if that is the case for you. In that vein, what that means is, Do some reading up on what the horrors actually are.

Do not just strike it from your books. Do some research for yourself, [00:36:00] so that you know how to show up for your students who Do not know this information. There are certain things that we don't want to think about. we don't want to think about the mobs. We don't want to think about the fires. We don't want to think about that. But it's, no, it happened. It happened. But if you can look at the stuff that happens today, when , there's mass shootings at hospitals, mass shootings at schools, mass shootings at churches. You think about all these things that are happening. Listen, Horror is not a new thing.

It's not a new thing. So going there with your students and recognizing like, Hey, we're all getting ready to have a difficult conversation. And providing the resources for what happens afterwards. It's really important. 

Gabe: Yeah. 

Aaron: There is a study guide , that comes before the performance that arrives to teachers prior. And I know that you'll both have an opportunity to lend a hand in what goes into that.

 That study guide is a resource for them for teachers and administrators. 

Avery: And dig deeper,

Aaron: Yeah.

tertiary, you know, 

Avery: Yeah. 

Dig deeper. They do a little,

Aaron: You're [00:37:00] grownups. You're grownups. You can do that work.

Avery: can, you can dig a little

deeper, you 

know? Yeah.

You can dig a little deeper, you know? in service, in service of not just yourself and your students, but in service of the culture And service of everyone around. Like a learned, a learned individual is somebody who can contribute to the change in the world. 

Frederick Douglass Superstar

Aaron: And there's no lack of, , Frederick Douglass wrote so much, so much Gabe, I know that was a big passion of yours. Like this man created and generated so many ideas

Gabe: Yeah.

He was just, he was his own, he was his own version of like Shakespeare during his time. You know, like he was, he was a superstar. Like if I could put, if I can make a musical about Frederick Douglass, it would be the Frederick Douglass superstar musical, right? Cause that's, he was an icon during his time.

We often forget what he did for, for the culture. We often forget what he did for, for African Americans and black people. It's, it's profound. So I'm excited for people to, to understand that. 

Aaron: Well, thank you both [00:38:00] very, very much for your time. Uh, Avery, I'm, I'm, I'm excited to have you on the ground. Gabe, I'm glad that you're going to be able to come in 

Avery: Aw man, I'm so excited. I'm

so excited. Man, I'm

so excited. I'm so excited. I have to say, I'm so excited.

Gabe: Thank you. Silence. 

Avery: Absolutely.

Booking a TIC Tour

Aaron: If people are, listening to this and they're excited about bringing theater in the classroom to their school or to their community organization, how might they go about doing that?

Abby: Super easy. They email me. , That's all you got to do. You just got to start a conversation with me and we'll start rolling the ball down, down the hill of getting you a date and, and how to work it out with your school. Uh, and you can do that by emailing me at abigaill@bte.Org or going to our [00:39:00] bte.org/theatre-in-the-classroom website. And there is a little hootinanny that sends an email to me, like you fill out the little form and it sends an email to me that you're interested and I can get it that way as well. 

Aaron: And we'll make sure that we link your email and the link to that page, , make sure that they have a direct link to that form in description. 

Abby: This show is designed for kindergarten through sixth grade So when you're booking this know that that's the age range we aim for in terms of the content. We are happy to perform for anything older than that but it typically skews to the younger side and and usually hits home better in that age group.

Aaron: And how many kids like what size group do we perform for? 

Abby: It can be up to I'm saying 250.

Aaron: The style of production that goes out it fits in a van. 

Abby: Yes 

Aaron: It's not a flashy set per se. The actors and the interaction with the kids that it is very interactive show can keep the attention [00:40:00] of 250 kids really well for 40 minutes.

Yeah. 

Abby: Yeah. Yeah as soon 

Aaron: as you start adding more kids 

Abby: Tends to get a little mayhem-ish. Just because like everybody feeds off each other's energy and it's just it just gets huge.

Aaron: And and these actors are going out unamplified Right.

Yeah, so it is the power of the personalities of the actors that that keeps these kids engaged Yes so there's a sweet spot for the number of kids And I 

Abby: believe it's 250 

Aaron: Is the upper range yes, and then for as many as you know 10 or 12 

Abby: Yeah, we've done it for super small private schools.

We've done it for super big schools. This translates to any size school. 

Aaron: Yeah. One of the things that these actors are so adept at is adapting to who and what conditions that are performing in. And that's actually part of the fun that I remember is like, so here we are in Hazleton and there are, So many people.

Yes, yes, yes. And then here we are at Greenwood Friends and there are, 20. 

Abby: [00:41:00] 20. Yeah, and , 

Aaron: So you get to tell and craft the scale or the tone of the piece for the people that are in front of you. 

Abby: Great. 

Outro

Aaron: This has been Bloomsburg Theatre Ensemble Down Center. Ensemble driven, professional theatre. Arts education in rural Pennsylvania. For everyone, with everyone. And Theatre in the Classroom, it, it We'd like to thank Sakasui Kydex for sponsoring our Theatre in the Classroom tour.

And this year's TIC is on tour March 17th with a free library preview open to the public at the Bloomsburg Public Library on March 15th. .

BTE's production of Misery is still running at the Alvina Kraus Theater through February 9th. Reminder, this show is appropriate for mature audiences. Get your tickets online at www. bte. org.

Abby: We rehearse it.

We schmooze it and change it until it fits together nicely for an educational yet entertaining thing for students to watch. Can 

Aaron: you spell schmooze, please? Schmooze, 

Abby: yes, S C H, [00:42:00] schmooze, M U Z Z. Thank you. You're welcome.